Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Why Catelyn Sucks | Part 1


hello and welcome back to the Wolf’s den we are the order of the green hand here to bring some clarity to a Song of Ice and Fire so at last we are finally going to tell you all the reasons Katalin Tully is the worst person that’s ever lived starting with book 1 we’re going to take you through the story and slowly but surely debunk the myth that Katalin is a strong good woman but actually a conniving selfish and deplorable sociopath let me put it to you like this by the time we’re done you might think Cersei Lannister is a better person than her so let’s jump right in at the start of book 1 a raven arrives at Winterfell bearing the news of Jon Aaron’s death and that Robert rides for Winterfell both Ned and Catelyn knew immediately what that meant because the only reason the king would ride all the way to Winterfell would be to ask Ned to be his new hand robert arrives and does just that now I know we normally do all encompassing whole story videos but when we were thinking about how we wanted to present this narrative we knew we wanted to start with cattle and second point of view chapter and originally we were just going to include the dialogue but after going through the chapter again we decided that every single word in his chapter was essential so we are now going to take you through this chapter line by line thought by thought as to truly show everyone how sick this woman really is of all the rooms in Winterfell is great keep Catalans bed chambers were the hottest she seldom had to light a fire the castle had been built over natural Hot Springs and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man’s body driving the chill from the stone halls filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth keeping the earth from freezing open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards that was a little thing in summer in winter it was the difference between life and death Catalans bath was always hot and steaming and her walls warm to the touch the warmth reminded her of River run of days in the Sun with Liza and dead near but Ned could never abide the heat the Starks were made for the cold he would tell her and she would laugh and tell him in that case they had certainly built their castle in the wrong place so when they had finished Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed as he had a thousand times before he crossed the room pulled back the heavy tapestries and threw open the high narrow windows one by one letting the night air into the chamber I don’t know about you but I was unaware that that was a sex scene until it was over what a loving woman that must have been really good for Ned while he’s on top of her she’s thinking about Riverrun warm walls hot baths her brother and sister hot springs life death and a joke she told him once now I’m sure that there’s a woman or two out there who’s been in that situation where he would rather be doing something else but damn she literally thought about just about everything but Ned including her siblings which is messed up in its own special way but let’s get back to the story the wind swirled around him as he stood facing the dark naked and empty-handed Catalan pulled the firs to her chin and watched him he looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable like the youth she had wet in the Sept at Riverrun fifteen long years gone her loin still ate from the urgency of his lovemaking it was a good ache she could feel his seed within her she prayed that it might quick in there it had been three years since Rickon she was not too old old she could give him another son I will refuse him Ned said as he turned back to her his eyes were haunted his voice thick with doubt Catalan sat up in the bed you cannot you must not my duties are here in the north I have no wish to be robert’s hand he will not understand that he is a king now and Kings are not like other men if you refuse to serve him he will wonder why and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him can’t you see the danger that would put us in Ned shook his head refusing to believe Robert would never harm me or any of mine we are closer than brothers he loves me if I refuse him he will roar and curse and bluster and in a week we will laugh about it together I know the man you knew the man she said the king is a stranger to you Katalin remembered the direwolf dead in the snow the broken antler lodged deep in her throat she had to make him see pride is everything to a king my lord Robert came all this way to see you to bring you these great honors you cannot throw them back in his face honours Ned laughs bitterly in his eyes yes and in yours and in mine she blazed angry now why couldn’t he see he offers his own son in marriage to our daughter what else would you call that Sansa might someday be queen her sons could rule from the wall to the mountains of Dorne what is so wrong with that God’s Catalan sonses only eleven and Joffrey Joffrey is Crown Prince and heir to the Iron Throne and I was only 12 when my father promised me to your brother Brandon that brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth Brandon yes Brandon would know what to do he always did it was all meant for Brandon you winterfell everything he was born to be a king’s hand in a father two queens I never asked for this cup to pass to me perhaps not but Brandon is dead and the cup has passed and you must drink from it like it or not Ned turned away from her back to the night he stood staring out into the darkness watching the moon in the Stars perhaps or perhaps the centuries on the wall Catalan softened then to see his pain Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place as custom decreed but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them as did the other the shadow of the woman he would not name the woman who had borne him his bastard son she was about to go to him when the knock came at the door loud and unexpected so Catalan is pretty adamant about Ned going to King’s Landing bordering on desperate she even went as far as saying that she feared what Robert would do if he refused at that point net actually laughed which is probably one of maybe two or three laughs Ned has over the course of the entire book and then there’s the knock did anyone else notice that she didn’t think to herself that a knock came at the door she thought the knock came at the door there is a huge difference between a knock and the knock changing that one little word subtly changes the entire meaning of the sentence a knock implies that she was an expecting company while the knock implies that she was expecting a visitor who was this visitor state and you’re about to find out Desmond’s voice came through the door my lord maester Luwin is without and begs urgent audience you told them I had left orders not to be disturbed yes my lord he insists very well send him in Ned cross to the Wardrobe and slipped on a heavy robe Katalin realized suddenly how cold it had become she sat up in bed and pulled the furs to her chin perhaps we should close the windows she suggested Ned nodded absently maester Luwin was shown in the maester was a small gray man his eyes were gray and quick and saw much his hair was gray what little the years had left him his robe was grey wool trimmed with white fur the stark colors its gray floppy sleeves had pockets hidden inside Lewin was always tucking things into those sleeves and producing other things from them books messages strange artifacts toys for the children with all he kept hidden in his sleeves Catalan was surprised that maester Luwin could lift his arms at all the maester waited until the door had closed behind him before he spoke My Lord he said to Ned pardon for disturbing arrest I had been left a message Ned looked irritated been left by whom has her been a rider I was not told there was no rider My Lord only carved wooden box left in the table in my observatory while I napped My servants saw no one but it must have been brought by someone in the Kings party we have had no other visitors from the south a wooden box you say inside was a fine new lens for the observatory from near by the look of it the LensCrafters of mirror are without equal Ned frowned he had little patience for this sort of thing Catalan knew Allen’s he said what does that to do with me I asked the same question mr. Lewin said clearly there was more to this than the seeming under the heavy weight of her furs Catalans shivered Allen’s is an instrument to help us see indeed it is he fingered the collar of his order a heavy chain worn tight around his neck beneath his robe each link forged from a different metal Katalin could feel dread stirring inside her once again what is it that they would have us see more clearly the very thing I asked myself mr. Lewin drew a tightly rolled paper out of his sleeve I found the true message concealed within a false bottom when I dismantled the Box the lens had come in but it is not for my eyes Ned held out his hand let me have it then Lewin did not stir pardons my lord the message is not for you either it is marked for the eyes of lady Katalin and her alone may I approach Katalin nodded not trusting to speak the Meister placed the paper on the table beside the bed it was sealed with a small blob of blue wax Lewin bowed and began to retreat stay Ned commanded him his voice was grave he looked at Katalin what is it my lady you’re shaking I’m afraid she admitted she reached out and took the letter in trembling hands the Furze dropped away from her nakedness forgotten in the blue wax was the moon and Falcon seal of house Aaron it’s from Liza Catalan looked at her husband it will not make us glad she told him there is grief in this message Ned I can feel it Ned frowned his face darkening open it catalán broke the seal her eyes moved over the words at first they made no sense to her then she remembered liza took no chances when we were girls together we had a private language she and I can you read it yes Catalan admitted then tell us perhaps I should withdraw maester Luwin said no we will need your counsel she threw back the furs and climbed from the bed the night air was as cold as the grave on her bare skin as she padded across the room maester Luwin averted his eyes even Ned looked shocked what are you doing he asked lighting a fire catalan told him she found a dressing-gown and shrugged into it then knelt over the cold hearth maester Luwin Ned began maester Luwin has delivered all my children this is no time for false modesty she slid the paper and among the kindling and placed the heavier logs on top of it so what is going on here a mysterious package arrives with a nice new lens for the observatory Catalan then immediately has a poetic answer on hand she said it’s to help us see Ned doesn’t even care so they kicked the drama up a notch maester Luwin tells him that for some reason he decided to completely dismantle the really nice box the gift came in because he suspected that there must be something hidden in it he then pulls a letter out of his sleeve and says that it was in the box and refuses to show it to Ned and hands it directly to Catalan she then opens it informs him that is a message from her sister that only she can read and then she burns it why according to Catalan she and wise are the only two people alive who can read it so why does it need to be burned before Ned can see it but let’s keep going Ned crossed the room took her by the arm and pulled her to her feet he held her there his face inches from her my lady tell me what was this message Catalan stiffened in his grasp a warning she said softly if we have the Wits to hear his eyes searched her face go on lyza says Jon Arryn was murdered his fingers tightened on her arm by whom the Lannisters the Queen Ned released his hold on her arm there were deep red marks on her skin gods he whispered his voice was hoarse your sister is sick with grief she cannot know what she is saying she knows lyza is impulsive yes but this message was carefully planned cleverly hidden she knew it meant death if her letter fell into the wrong hands to risk so much she must have had more than mere suspicion Catalan looked to her husband now we truly have no choice you must be Robert’s hand you must go south with him and learn the truth she saw it once that Ned had reached a very different conclusion the only truths I know are here the south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid lewin plucked at his chain collar where had chafed the soft skin of his throat the hand of the king has great power my lord power to find the truth of Lord Aaron’s death to bring his killers to the Kings Justice power to protect lady Arryn and her son if the worst be true Ned glanced helplessly around the bedchamber Catalans heart went out to him but she knew she could not take him in her arm just then first the victory must be won for her children’s sake you say you loved Robert like a brother would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters so the two of them are completely ganging up on him practically forcing him to do something that he does not want to do he said his place is in the north instead Catalan and Lewin are entangling him in southern troubles of which he does not care pulling at his heartstrings hoping that the accusation of the murder of John Aaron and implying that his best friend is in danger will convince him to leave Winterfell and head south to King’s Landing but why would this be a victory that Catalan needs for the sake of our children well we’re about to get to that the others take both of you Ned muttered darkly he turned away from them and went to the window she did not speak nor did the maester they waited quiet while a tardes Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved when he turned away from the window at last his voice was tired and full of melancholy and moisture glittered faintly on the corners of his eyes my father went south once to answer the summons of a king he never came home again a different time maester Luwin said a different King yes Ned said dully he seated himself in a chair by the hearth Catalan you shall stay here in Winterfell his words were like an icy draught through her heart no she said suddenly afraid was this to be her punishment never to see his face again nor to feel his arms around her yes Ned said in words that would brook no argument you must govern the north in my stead while I run robert’s errands there must always be a stark in Winterfell Robb is fourteen soon enough he will be a man grown he must learn to rule and I will not be here for him make him part of your councils he must be ready when his time comes God’s will not for many years maester Luwin murmured maester Luwin I trust you as I would my own blood give my wife your voice in all things great and small teach my son the things he needs to know winter is coming maester Luwin nodded gravely then silence fell until catalin found her courage and asked the question whose answer she most dreaded what of the other children Ned stood and took her in his arms and felt her face close to his Rickon is very young he said gently he should stay here with you and Rob the others I will take with me I could not bear it you must he said Santa must Wed Joffrey that is clear now we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion and it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southern Court in a few years she will be of an age to marry – Sansa would shine in the south Katalin thought to herself and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement reluctantly she let go of them in her heart but not bran never brand yes she said but please Ned for the love you bear me let brand remain here at Winterfell he is only seven I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie Ned said sir Roderick tells me there is a bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey that is not healthy bran can bridge the distance he is a sweet boy quick to laugh easy to love let him grow up with the young prince’s let him become their friend as Robert became mine our house will be the savor for it he was right Katalin knew it it did not make the pain any easier to bear she would lose all four of them then Ned and both girls and her sweet loving bran only Rob ends little Rickon would be left to her she felt lonely already Winterfell was such a vast place keep him off the walls then she said bravely you know how bran loves to climb Ned kiss the tears from her eyes before they could fall thank you my lady he whispered this is hard I know what of Jon Snow my lord maester Luwin asked Katalin tensed at the mention of the name Ned felt the anger in her and pulled away many men fathered bastards Catalan had grown up with that knowledge it came as no surprise to her in the first year of her marriage to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign he had a man’s needs after all and they had spent that year apart Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun her thoughts were more of Robb the infant at her breast then of the husband she scarcely knew he was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles and if his seed quickened she expected he would see to the child’s needs he did more than that the Starks were not like other men Ned brought his bastard home with him and called him son for all the north to see when the wars were over at last and Catalan road to Winterfell John and his wet nurse had already taken up residence that cut deep Ned would not speak of the mother not so much as a word but a castle has no secrets in Catalan heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband soldiers they whispered of Sir Arthur Dayne the sword of the morning deadliest of the seven nights of Eris’s Kingsguard and of how their young Lord had slain him in single combat and they told how afterward Ned had carried Sir Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who aided him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the summer sea the lady ashara dayne tall and fair with haunting violet eyes it had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage but finally in bed one night Katalin had asked her husband the truth of it asked him to his face that was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her never asked me about John he said cold as ice he is my blood and that is all you need to know and now I will learn where you heard that name my lady she had pledged to obey she told him and from that day on the whispering had stopped and a shara danes name was never heard and winter fell again whoever John’s mother had been Ned must have loved her fiercely for nothing Catalan said would persuade him to send the boy away it was the one thing she could never forgive him she had come to love her husband with all her heart but she had never found it in her to love John she might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake so long as they were out of sight John was never out of sight and as he grew he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him somehow that made it worse John must go ah the real purpose for this mother show she has waited for nearly 15 years for this moment and she is not going to waste it she likely started planning this when the raven first arrived bringing the news of the Kings visit after all in order for Catalan to have the message the Raven brought she would have had to have been with Lewin right before it and Lewin was her master at Riverrun and was possibly in the room when the negotiations took place that forced Ned to marry Catalan in spite of the fact that he was already married with a pregnant wife if you haven’t had a chance to check out our Ned’s bastards video there is a much better explanation for this in there so Catalans victory for the sake of her children is that if John takes the black even if the truth were to somehow service he is no threat to her sons and their rights to Winterfell he and Rob are close Ned said I had hoped he cannot stay here he is your son not mine I will not have him it was hard she knew but no less the truth Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell the look Ned gave her was anguished you know I cannot take him south there will be no place for him at court a boy with a bastards name you know what they will say of him he will be shunned Catalan armored her heart against the mute appeal and her husband’s eyes they say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself and none of them has ever been seen a court ned blazed the Lannister woman has seen to that how can you be so damnably cruel Catalan he is a boy he his fury was on him he might have said more and worse but maester Luwin cut in another solution presents itself he said in his quiet voice your brother Benjen came to me about John a few days ago it seems the boy aspires to take the black Ned looks shocked he asked to join the Nights Watch Catalan said nothing let Ned work it out in his own mind her voice would not be welcome now yet gladly would she have kissed the Meister just then his was the perfect solution Benjen Stark was a sworn brother John would be a son to him the child he would never have and in time the boy would take the oath as well he would father no sons who might someday contest with Catalans on and children for Winterfell maester Luwin said there is great honor and service on the wall my lord and even a bastard may rise high in the Nights Watch Ned reflected still his voice was troubled John is so young if he asked this when he was a man grown that would be one thing but a boy of 14 a hard sacrifice maester Luwin agreed yet these are hard times my lord his road is no crueler than yours or your ladies Katalin thought of the three children she must lose it was not easy keeping silent then Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window his long face silent and thoughtful finally he sighed and turned back very well he said to maester Luwin I suppose it is for the best I will speak to Ben when shall we tell John the maester I asked when I must preparations must be made it will be a fortnight before we are ready to depart I would sooner let John enjoy these last few days summer will end soon enough and his childhood as well when the time comes I will tell him myself hey everybody hoped you enjoyed the video and have begun to understand why we think Catalan is a manipulative psycho who will go to any means necessary to get what she wants remind you of anyone oh yeah posture Tully the scum who forced Ned to marry his daughter when he knew he was already married so after having sex with Ned the Black Widow began spinning her web with the assistance of the grey rat maester Luwin and the two of them honestly put on Oscar worthy performances and in doing so got Ned out of Dodge and John sent to the wall way to go so coming up in what looks like it’s going to be a thirty part series we’re going to continue telling you all the reasons that Catalan is the worst person that’s ever lived so stay tuned like and subscribe for more clarity on a Song of Ice and Fire brought to you by the order of the green hand you

Maurice Vega

100 Responses

  1. This a book based channel? I might subscribe if so. Most people i know are show fans so it is hard to talk to them as i am not a fan of the show.

    I liked the show earlier on but it got worse. I am a fan of books. Like talking about ASOIAF.

  2. It is interesting how they changed all of that in the show and made Cat Not want Ned to go, and it was Ned and Lewin who who were trying to convince her.

  3. Yeah Catelyn is a piece of shit. I knew that when she took Tyrion. She basically got her husband killed with that dumbass move

  4. Here's a twist Ned had no choice in most of his decisions he was forced to marry Catelyn out of Duty therefore never had any true love for her that had to come with time and he never could truly trust her she was selfish and narcissistic and only cared for herself and things that came from her henceforth the way she treated John who had no fault in his parentage ned couldn't trust his wife with a secret and if she had known she still would the child bad she was not nice or good women

  5. "She seldom had to light a fire" clearly uses a third-person pronoun, meaning this part is coming to readers as an introduction from the third-person omniscient perspective Martin uses, not from Catelyn's actual point of view, as from an inner-thought monologue. Setting that aside, Ned "rolled off her" and immediately went to go open all the windows because "Starks are made for the cold," which would make him the more selfish lover if you want to read the "sex scene" that way. Ultimately, though, what Martin is showing is that you have a couple with obvious intimacy and closeness if not always great passion. As lord of Winterfell and a very privileged Stark, he could be bedding nearly anyone he wanted, but the "thousands of times" he and Catelyn have been together built their bond. An author controls the narrative of a work, but readers experience and react to text in ways that go beyond authorial intention, which is what literary analysis is. Still, if you want to go beyond hyperbole and stirring up some half-baked, click-bait controversy, you have to use a solid argumentative foundation, which is what is lacking here. You build on a weak foundation, and the argument simply couldn't take the weight you wanted as a result.

  6. Why the fuck is she worried about the King taking revenge if Ned was to decline? A He wouldn't do that and B who gives a shit if he did? He has no dragons…(apart from Cersei).

    The North has never been taken by anyone…. ever, what the fuck's Robert gonna do? He can't fly his army over the swamps of the neck and even if he does get his legions past some way he'd still have to get past Moat Calyn where a dozen good archers can hold off armies, he can't sail a fleet to the shores of the North because he won't get past White Harbor.

    On top of that the climate is really cold even in summer compared to Kings Landing so they probably won't be a match for northern soldiers that are acclimatized to the weather AND are much better equipped to cross the rough terrain of the North.

    I'd have taken my chances, if the Andals couldn't take the North Robert ain't taking it either no matter how angry he gets at Ned.

  7. So, I haven't seen much of Catelyn, and pretty much held her in a positive light since she was a Stark. But as I read the comments, I'm like. 'Okay, I gotta watch this.'

  8. Catelyn and house Tully is based the most on medieval, feudal nobility and their ideas. "Family, duty, honor." you may see her as horrible person but I just see 'nother female Borgia, Habsburg or Sforza that is married into different noble house to ensure alliance and interest of her family. Basically duty to her family and if needed scheme for the betterment of her house and children.
    Bona Sforza d'Aragona impersonated, the queen that by all means necessary ensured her kids will sit on the throne. She didn't held much direct power but in reality she had more power and influence then her husband the king.

  9. "'Tears, tears, tears.' She sobbed hysterically. 'No need for tears… but that's not what you said in King's Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon's wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said.'" Lysa, A Storm of Swords, page 913

  10. It's amusing how different Show Catelyn's actions and Book Catelyn's actions are in the beginning… show Catelyn was openly against him going south.

  11. What's this about Ned already having a wife when he was forced to marry Catelyn? He wasn't even betrothed to anyone at that point. That's why his dad stayed home and kept Ned and his siblings go to yo the tourney at Harrenhal. He wanted Ned and Benjen to make connections, meet other young people who might be good matches someday. Only Brandon and Lyanna were betrothed. Ned was too young to marry without his father's consent and he was too honorable to defy his father and run off to marry a girl in secret.
    Ned married Catelyn out of honor because she had been betrothed to his brother. All the contracts were written up and it wasn't Hoster Tully's fault Brandon had been killed. Besides, he knew that he'd need the Tulllys as allies in the rebellion.
    Out of curiosity, who was Ned supposedly married to? I don't see Hoster Tully or Maester Llewyn as manipulative at all. Besides, the Maester takes orders from the Castle Lord, not the Lady. He would not help her deceive him. Catelyn was a crazy Biatch but not some master schemer. I just don't see it.

  12. This is not true. That's not what happened. He completely misread the sentence . Of course she enjoyed the sex . That what it means when it says,"her lions were still aching"

  13. maybe the fish at riverrun were contaminated with Mercuery? Well a GOT version of Mercuery. It could also explain Liza's mental instability. They could've contaminated themselves when they were children. Now I am more of show watcher than reading the books, only because the books have about 50 different tangents that they go off in and I just cant keep up with that many different things going on, but in the show and what I did read of the books (all of book 1,2, 3, and most of 4) I cant recall any significate stories/ fables/or even met in a flash back NY OTHER Tully woman besides Catelyn and Liza. so maybe all the newer generations of Tully's have all been "crazy". even Catelyn's father is sick and dying in the show, and does die in like a really early season of the show.

  14. I have to say I’m glad the lady stopped swearing in these videos. Not because I have an issue with swearing, it’s because she sounded so cringy when she did it, like a kid trying to impress their big sibling friends. It actually threw me out of the video for a minute but that’s only because I started watching your newer videos first. You guys have come a long way since these videos and have definitely found your voice and kudos to finding untapped parts of the ASOIAF series

  15. I always get a kick out of people blaming one person for something that multiple people had a hand in creating. It’s like when a team loses and everyone blames the goalie but it’s like,
    hello, defence is suppose to keep it away from the goalie in the first place. I definitely agree that Cat played a large role in the war of the five kings but I also think certain events would have come to pass in some form no matter what. A lot of people where planning a long game for the Iron Throne and I honestly feel Ned would have been used and then killed by someone in the end regardless of Cat, he was just too noble of a person to have around.

  16. As her sister Lysa said to Sansa very revealingly; "You're mother was sweet. She always wanted what was sweet!" She didn't exactly pull a Llyanna and run off with a sweetheart, she married a man she didn't love but cooperated with. WHY? Well, when it comes to her family, only the black sheep the 'Blackfish' was decent, the rest were useless, and her slutty sister off in the Vale. Ned was a 'man of honour' and despite the sexism of the Notherners, basically let her co-lead the North. Then when Robert comes North to offer him the Hand of the King position she's persuaded him to accept it, leaving HER in charge of the biggest Kingdom of Westeros. Yeah.

  17. I completely agree, I hate this bitch. She treated Jon like shit, she deserves to be killed. Karma. I guess she would have made a good villain.

  18. And Tully siblings are very are very strange. Edmure was easy logical whereas Tully women are crazy, foolish, ugly and mad af. I'm relieving my frustration here.

  19. Cat is a pretty terrible person. she just doesn't really seem to be kind or thoughtful as a person and she seems very convinced that she is.

  20. "The Others take you both!"

    Maester Lewin was absorbed by the weirwood tree.

    Catelyn was drowned in the river.

    Poetic Justice, I should say.

  21. All the Tully’s other than the black fish were wretched people, I loved Catelyn as a character, but I was very well aware that she was awful the whole time

  22. Ned is on top of her and she thought" I could have gotten a better deal on my new carriage, did I itemize raven chow on our tax return? I wonder what my junk looks like in front of the fire when I bend over??"

  23. Yes…. Catelyn sucks…. but i think that Littlefinger is the biggest reason why she sucks…. he "whispers" to her….
    Catelyn hears "whispering" about Ashara in Winterfell….
    Littlefinger "whispered" to Joffery to kill Ned…he has the knowledge to "whisper"…. why not use it on Catelyn….and now he is interested in Sansa….

  24. Catelyn is a lot like Cersei; a manipulative, self-important cunt that constantly makes arrogant, stupid, selfish decisions that gets people killed, but hey, "iM a GOoOd mOThErR!"

  25. I just spent 2 hours watching your videos and realized it had already been 2 hours.

    Just so you know I came here after seeing charisma on command's recommendation of the Tywin series which was marvelous.

    This channel is exactly what I was looking for. A breakdown into GoT, without much bias, trying to explain the intention behind GRRM's choice to include that 1 in 100 in his very short books of his vastly unending universe.

    Thanks. I'll probably be here much after season 8.

  26. I understand that she made mistakes, but she isnt the only one. If what, she is the wisest of the starks. Ned is dumb as fuck, robb is simply idiot, jon breaks his wows all the time, yet most of the hatred is concentrated on catelyn. And she is also a great and heartbreaking character, and one of my favorites.

  27. All the comments saying that they also hated Catelyn… Finally someone understands! I have been waiting for this for years!

  28. Cat has every right to be wary of an illegitimate son of Ned’s – just ask Domeric Bolton (no wait, you can’t – he was reportedly killed by his bastard brother), or Daeron II Targaryen (who’s bastard brother raised an army and tried to steal his throne), or Aerys II Targaryen (who’s family were deposed by an army lead by the ruler of a house that was founded by the bastard friend/brother of Aegon the Conqueror).

    History is on her side. Just because the readers know Jon’s nothing more than a noble dullard (someone everybody can relate to, because he’s completely devoid of a personality that extends beyond the moralist rigidity that got Ned killed), doesn’t mean she does.

    Sad truth, if Preston Jacobs is correct, Jon is the (possibly legitimate) son of Brandon Stark – who forsook his betrothal to Cat – and has a great claim to her children’s inheritance. Would be great if she, on some level, realised this and it was revealed to be at the root of her hostility towards Lord Snow.

  29. At the four-minute mark now. Catelyn not being emotionally invested in the sex scene… eeeeh, part of the point of GRRM's story is that sex is pretty much generally shit for women under this kind of feudal system. Keep in mind Ned is not even the man she fell in love with, that was Brandon. She was pretty much forced to marry Ned after Brandon was killed. Aside from the fact that she and Ned have at least developed a mutual respect for each other over the years, she's in a somewhat similar situation to Cersei – or the great majority of noblewomen in Westeros, really. Robert only climbs on top of Cersei when he's drunk, and he fucks her like she's one of his whores. Ned, on the other hand, is cold and emotionally distant, arguably borderline anhedonic, and he seems to have difficulty reading people. He probably isn't the best lover either. Neither of them probably even care too much about the woman's pleasure. Essentially, for women in this kind of situation, having sex is a chore, not a pleasure. I don't think this indicates much about Catelyn's character. But let's see what else you have.

  30. Hahahahaha, I see where this is going. But what happened to Neds and Ashara's marriage? I guess the High Septon annulled it… XD

  31. I know this is two years ago but after reading Catlyn's POV. I said the same thing. To me, Catelyn Stark is the biggest hypocrite in this story and I really feel more sympathy for Cersei then I do her. When you consider her POV chapter from The GOTs book. Her conniving and conspiring to get Jon out of Winterfell nearly destroyed House Stark. She shouldn't really have felt any type of way about Ned or Jon considering the fact that she only met Ned the day she married him, and he left her having just conceived after one night together, to go off and fight in Robert's rebellion. She was madly in love with, and literally locking herself away for days after finding out Brandon was dead, in mourning, and by her own admission, her love for Brandon was a wedge between her and Ned the first few years of their marriage. By what is stated about Ned's older brother, it's possible that he and Catelyn may already have been intimate with one another. To me, that raises two glaring plot holes that I don't think GRR Martin intended to open up.

    The first one is, how was she so upset by Ned's "betrayal" and Jon Snow's existence when she admits she was in love with his brother so much so, that the first years of their marriage to one another, it was a "wedge"?

    The second one is the possibility that Robb Stark is not Ned's trueborn son, he is Brandon Stark's bastard. That would be the only explanation as to why Catelyn was so hostile and cold to Jon Snow. Until Bran came along, She had a Stark man child, but not Ned Stark's son until Bran was born, even as a bastard, Jon had a better claim to Winterfell they Robb did, or then were both on even footing.

  32. I hated how the Show made her come across as likable she is a straight up bitch and they fd her character up from day 1 she was the one that didn’t want Ned to go to be the new hand not the other way around

  33. Thank you for this video. I have always claimed that Catelyn is manipulative and self-centered. She forced Ned to become Hand, went to KL herself to inform him of the attack on Bran (all of a sudden it wasn’t important to be with Bran anymore), stayed with her father instead of returning to WF, as Ned had told her to, and did not really show any maternal feelings when she was told that her two little boys had been hanged by Theon (sometimes I think Rickon isn’t her son), she promised Robb to the Frey’s etc…. The list just goes on and on.

    However, if N + A = J theory is correct, then that would mean that there was no real Stark at WF when Ned went down south (because Jon and Benjen both went to the Wall). Would Ned have left WF without a Stark? Why did he tell Catelyn that she had to stay behind because “there must always be a Stark at Winterfell”. But Catelyn and her children are not Starks. And Ned himself allowed Jon to leave with his uncle.

  34. Well Catelyn can be more dangerous than the other villains like Ramsey, or Cerci because these villains knew who they were. They knew they were “the bad guys” they knew that their ways were wrong, but you see Catelyn doesn’t think what she’s doing is bad. She thinks that she’s actually a hero in what she does. She actually thinks her way is for the greater good thus refusing to admit just how selfish she is. This is a woman who found it in her heart to viciously hate a baby A BABY. What kind of person can hate a baby? A person like Ramsey, but Ramsey is not as dangerous as she is because he knows how evil he is, she doesn’t. That’s why she is one of the most dangerous villains. Also because she can sweet talk her way and whisper into the powerful characters ears, sometimes I feel like she and little finger were made for each other.

  35. meh. So far im seeing too much read into a couple words. Also unsure where you get that he was previously married.
    Besides its interesting to watch this after watching the Tywin videos as thus far if what you are suggesting is true then it still makes her more like Tywin whom you would appear to respect. So then one must ask why you respect Tywin for his schemes and not Catalyn for hers?

  36. When people really analyze why they like the Starks some realize that maybe they only support them because the show positioned them for it. This most applies to Cat and Sansa people refuse to see them for what they are.

  37. I was just wishing for someone to talk with about how much Catelyn stark sucks. She sucks on every account. She damn near worse than Cercei. I can’t think what makes her better. She’s got to be the dumbest person in 7 kingdoms

  38. I just started reading the books and was surprised how much I disliked Catelyns chapter. She seems such a horrible person.
    On the show she was much nicer, or more sympethatic

  39. Lemme guess. Because Catelyn didn't love the golden boy Jon Snow, that's why she sucks? Because no one listened to her advice, that's why the Starks lost?

    The hate for Catelyn is pretty retarded

  40. I was interested in your opinion, not book read through. For a minute of reading book you comment five seconds. I agree with some of your points, but it lacks more explanation vs just reading book.

  41. I haven't watched this series yet (about to), but I'll certainly say that I read the books after watching most of the show (all the parts with Cat in them anyway), and immediately noticed how much worse she is in the books than the show, and I wasn't a huge fan of show Cat either.

  42. What's all this "Ned being married with a pregnant wife already" business? I'll try to get around to that video of yours, but could someone please just quickly fill me in?

  43. I love this series and it has changed my view of Catelyn entirely (I first watched the show what created a bias for her) but why does she want to go south with Ned if she did their would be no reason for Jon not to stay in Winterfell potentially even as Castellan

  44. What a bitch!
    Show Catelyn is more tolerable, but even so I never liked her and Sansa is the same as her mother, selfish spoiled manipulative women with no regards to other peoples feelings.
    I don't understand how can someone like them.

  45. FINALLY, CONFIRMATION! I have hated Catelyn forever. Was cheering when she was murdered and cursing when reanimated. She is the worst.

  46. Really ? Worse than Cersei ? Do you happen to recall what Cersei did to Robert's bastards in Kings Landing after he died ? She sent the gold cloaks after all of them, even the baby girl that would have never posed any threat to any of her children. Catelyn is only protected her children, I admit that before your other videos I never really understood why she hated Jon so much, but now it is clear : it's because he is a serious threat to all her children. Even if your theory is somehow wrong and J = R + L. Catelyn has enough reasons to believe Jon may be the true heir to winterfell. So yeah as far as Jon is concerned she is a pretty terrible person (though this passage is not the best to show that, Jon's chapter where he comes to say goodbye to the comatosed Bran and she commands him to leave was really cruel for example) but again if she was Cersei, Jon wouldn't have lived to tell the tale…
    On a side note you make it sound like it was all a masterplan of hers to make him go to the wall when the way it's told makes it really clear it's not (and we are sure she isn't hiding any thought because it is her POV). Sure, she welcomes the idea, but it was not hers…

  47. Wanna bet if she didnt dislike saint Jon Snow so much, who no one can go against, she wouldnt get half the hate she got. Despite having a good reason to hate Jon and not even really abusing him.

  48. The show should have had Lady Stonheart. I'm rereading A Storm of Swords again. Especially since S8 is over. Why not show a scroll? I know Hebrew when I see it.

  49. I agree that Catelyn is absolutely horrible towards Jon, but this entire video's supposition is that Catelyn FAKED the letter Littlefinger and Lysa made in Baelish's plot to get Ned down to King's Landing? All to get rid of Jon's potential children's potential claim on Winterfell? Damn this is a stupid video. Lysa absolutely wrote the letter, it had her seal; Lysa later reveals that Baelish had her write the letter when they were having their falling out at the Eyrie. There is no possible way for Cat to have faked this letter! Laughably bad logic.

  50. 😂😂😂😂 this video man book maybe cats not the sweetest to Jon or poor people maybe cats made poor choices as a child and teen but tv show cat is my favorite cat is my favorite aside from ned plus y’all left a shit to. Of book stuff out just saying cats book POV is just that we are not getting the around POV just gets so like in life.( which it’s never going to be because it’s a show and a book.) we may have POV but each person has there own narrative in a conversation and relationship we talk to each other and think thinks based on what we have said so ned could be thinking things to cat saying things to her while we are reading her POV and we are not getting this information we don’t know what kinds games she’s gotten played on her in the book she was scared of Robert and war if ned refused so telling him he had to go was maybe possibly a way to show this we have to just remember she was forced to be mother at a young age for her siblings. Plus all of this dose not add up to her being lady Stoneheart ? Why would she do all this stuff as lady stone heart if she was such a crazy phyco person. Granted I like tv show cat better but book cat is still not

  51. You guys do great work. These books are so rediculously intricate, you can keep rereading them and will continue to find new ways of interpreting the characters and their actions/words, based on what happens later on. GRRM is a super genius.

  52. An excellent video!!! Can you do one to expose the terrible person that Pepper Potts is in the MCU???

  53. You both seem to find the worst aspects in GRRM's characters then magnify them as if to make the characters totally unlikable or irredeemable and the story as little more than the brainchild of an author giving in to nihilism.

  54. This woman helped start all this bullshit with House Stark. If Ned stayed in the fucking North, well we wouldn't have these books lol

  55. Me: Man, I really love The Order of the Green Hand. There's no way I'd ever disagree with them on anything.
    sees the title of this video
    Aaaand I stand corrected. Sorry, respectfully disagree with you on this one. Catelyn is Martin's strongest and best written female character. She's also among his most human and realistic. She makes mistakes any mother would make, she didn't owe Jon Snow goddamn shit and he outta be grateful he didn't end up with Cersei as a step-mother, THEN he'd have something to whine about. Catelyn fought tooth and nail against a catspawn armed with Valyrian steel to defend her precious child and even came back from the dead to punish the Freys. I like to believe Lady Stoneheart is a big "fuck you" to all her haters

  56. Theory: Catelyn and her sister wanted their husbands dead…her sister because of loving Littlefinger and Cat because of Ned and his "bastard."

  57. Of course Catelyn wants Jon gone. She understands the potential threat he might be to her own family. We only have to look to the Bolton’s and the Targaryen Blackfyre rebellions to understand her fears are not unfounded. A lot of people judge Catelyn harshly because of her treatment of Jon ( and she is very cruel) but this is a society where bastards are despised and mistrusted. But unlike Cersei she doesn’t kill Ned’s apparent bastard.
    She is a flawed character and her flaws contribute to the downfall of her family. Just like Cersei but I think you are viewing her through a harsh and and narrow lens.
    I think your analysis of the text (which is usually excellent) is problematic and selective. There are characters who consciously commit far more heinous actions in the books.

  58. i dont like catlyn but even i see that the thoughts of catelyn was just a filler and discription of what she sees winterfell as
    not neccecerally thinking it while love making

  59. she is conflicted and made many wrong choices but that doesnt make her an evil sycopath
    just a southern lady

  60. Catelyn reminiscing while having sex is not weird. Sometimes the mind wanders. Maybe she is just not into that day? They have been making love for a few years now. She just be going with the motions.

    Secondly, Cate being desperate for Ned to go to KL is because they saw a dire wolf killed by a stag. She sees this as an omen that Bobby B will kill him if he is not hand when instead it represents Ned getting killed by a different “Baratheon.”

    “the knock” signifies the changes of everything. The start of the story. I think GRRM was trying to make the person coming into the door with whatever news they have to be majorly important not that Cate expected it.

    Cate forcing Jon away is shitty because he is just a child. He could have a claim to Winterfell later on so I see Cate’s sociological point of view.

  61. I went through your playlist, you guys have completely changed the way I look at so many of the interactions and characters. Great fucking work. I agree with most of your theories and you guys provide some real solid evidence them. It's amazing to me how GRRM can use stories within stories within stories to make points on many different levels. I am 100 percent certain he is also using symbolism to hide some lessons about climate change / extinction events in our world. In Free Mason Teachings Dragons and Swords are used to represent comet and impact events from our past. Randall Carlson has a bunch of lectures about Free Mason symbolism on this channel and they always pull my attention back to these books, even though he never mentions them. The wall seems to me to symbolize the North American Ice Cap that was melted down by an impact event 12900 years ago, but there's tons of this type of stuff. Love it, do work

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